5 Common GvG positioning strategies by Envy

I hope this helps

Resei wrote:

Something there hasn't been too much discussion on is positioning. Good positioning and understanding of our opponents' position strategy can help us tremendously in overcoming their gear advantage. I'm posting these as ideas to get people talking. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and variations on these strategies and others are numerous. However I do think we should come to some consensus about positioning.

1. The Stack

The stack is the simplest, easiest to coordinate strategy and can be either simple to crack or very difficult to overcome, depending on the strategy and timing used to beat it. It is, at its core, the consolidation of all of your power into a small area. It inherently allows for easy healing/support of party members, and lends itself very well to defensive target calling (let your opponent rush in and call out targets as they appear on the horizon). It's main disadvantage is vulnerability to AoEs, but this can be mitigated to some extent by having squishy/priority targets "hide" in the back of the stack.

The stack is primarily defensive, as moving it naturally breaks it up a bit, but a moving stack is still a very effective way of attacking a defensive position, especially when you outgear/outnumber your opponent. From what I've seen in TW and World PVP, Catalyst's main strategy is to stack. They also run a common variation on the stack, which involves a single party flanking (coming in from the sides/behind) once our forces have engaged their stack.

2. The Chase (to Greater Numbers)

The Chase is perhaps the most commonly used strategy in any PvP game. It is typically deployed in front of a stack, and utilizes high-priority flagged targets to quickly hit an enemy position, then immediately break off and return the way they came. The effectiveness of the Chase is psychological. The goal is to get some enemies to break from their position and chase individuals as individuals. The bait party then returns to its own stack/position, where greater numbers lie. Those who do chase are easily disposed of, and hopefully provide enough of a numbers swing to allow domination of the enemy position.

The success rate of the chase is purely dependent on the greater coordination of the enemy and the individual resolve of its members. It is, simply put, a trick. The idea behind the bait party is that your opponent wants to kill these people so bad, they will throw caution to the wind and chase them down come hell or high water. A well-employed Chase to Greater Numbers strategy can decimate a non-thinking opponent by casting disorganization and chaos into their ranks. Likewise, even a well-employed Chase can fail if the enemy refuses to chase or moves as a single stack. As I said earlier, this is an extremely common strategy used in many games. There are near infinite variations, ranging from the individual members used in the bait party (psychological considerations) to the formation the party returns to (stacks, envelopment formations, wedges, etc). While I have never seen Catalyst employ this strategy, it is incumbent upon all members to individually resist the temptation it provides.

3. The Wedge

The Wedge is an attack strategy which utilizes high-hp, tank-type characters at the front of a wedge, who are to initiate contact. In FW, this means prots and ele warriors with reflect skills and high-priority non-squishies with dedicated healers will make the first contact, followed by everyone else behind them, slightly fanned to the left and right. This is a military formation as old as warfare itself. The wedge succeeds against opponents who rely heavily on AoE skills, as the wedge is sufficiently spread out to avoid taking maximum damage. Lightly-armored mages and other characters can be placed on the outsides (wings) of the wedge to maximize their survivability. Since the outsides of the wedge engage after the center (which has sometimes been known through history as the Forlorn, or Forlorn Hope), they may also possess better timing and position with which to hit the deeper parts of the enemy's position.

Success with the wedge depends on two things - timing and coordination. A wedge is a moving attack strategy and will easily fail if anyone fails to a) move with the wedge or b) attack with the wedge. The Forlorn must hit first and draw the attention of the enemy's strongest players. Wedges are notoriously difficult to coordinate, despite being used for centuries in warfare and at least a decade in MMOs because of the requirement of full-strength, moving as one. Latecommers on either side of the wedge will just be slaughtered and if one of the wings is first to make contact, they will be killed just as quickly. Even so, the wedge can be deployed against a stack with great efficacy, as AoEs from both wings penetrate deeper into the stack than AoEing from a head-on position.

4. The Pincer (Set against a stationary opponent)

A simultaneous attack on an enemy's entrenched position from opposite sides, the Pincer is a death sentence when executed flawlessly. It cannot fail if opponents are somewhat evenly matched, as it causes confusion, division of priority, and vulnerability on both fronts for your enemy. Sometimes called "The Screaming Cheetah", the pincer is a form of direct envelopment calculated to give every advantage to the attacking side. It requires, however, an impeccable degree of coordination as well as up-to-the-second intelligence of the enemy's position and movement. Typically, it is only employed against an enemy's stationary stack. As it requires splitting forces in half, care must be taken in party organization to ensure one side of the pincer is just as strong as the other. The pincer is also heavily-reliant on crowd control and cooldown skills; because of this division of force, AoEs employed against the pincer hit with full effectiveness.

The method for establishing a pincer can vary. Parties can simply go their separate ways and converge on the enemy, or utilize realm-hopping to get to the starting position. Moreso that even with the Wedge, timing is everything. While it is okay for one side to be appearing on the horizon as the other side makes initial contact, anything less than this is a wipe. Ideally, both sides strike in perfect synchronicity and literally lay waste to anyone unfortunate enough to be standing between them. As with any other direct envelopment, knowledge of the enemy position is key to employing the strategy. The major downside, besides this, is that it takes a long time to set up. Impatience can easily kill a Pincer before it begins, with people either going AFK unannounced or resorting to one-off "Rambo" strikes, feeding the enemy and potentially giving away one or both sides of the attack before it is sprung. While deadly effective, I would not ever recommend setting up a pincer unless every member on our side could be trusted to be on the same page.

5. The Classic or "Staged" Envelopment (Used against an advancing opponent)

The Staged Envelopment is long-considered to be the holy grail of medieval warfare strategy. History buffs will recognize it as the strategy which Hannibal used to defeat the Romans at Cannae; some followers of PVP lore will note that the famed guild Nurfed has used this tactic with legendary success. It is, in essence, a Pincer utilized against an advancing opponent. The only intelligence required is the enemy's location and direction. Groups are assembled in a "line," a "U," or a "wedge," with the Center of the formation being the least-reinforced. Envelopments as defense require two stages. The first stage is a fierce resistance at the center of the formation, followed by a tactical retreat in the opposite direction by those in the center. As the enemy advances, the wings of the formation "envelop" around the outsides of the advancing enemy forming the second stage of the attack, cutting off the enemy's escape routes and striking from all sides.

Despite its heady tactical origins and seeming complication of a multi-staged attack, the envelopment is now the cornerstone of all modern warfare tactics of scale. It is far easier to organize than a Pincer against an entrenched position, as the timing is dictated by the enemy. Its advantages are numerous - the wings are all but shielded from AoEs, enemy priority targets tend to gravitate towards the middle and become "tunnel-visioned", and all outgoing fire is concentrated on the greatest number of opponents. As it is a defensive strategy by nature, it lends itself well to defending during world bosses, though the map and tactical goals in TW provides challenges which make setting an envelopment difficult there. It is excellent when deployed against an advancing stack, immune to a Chase strategy, and shines when used against superior numbers. It does, however, require that the center of the formation be the one the enemy chooses to attack. This means positioning is key, and as with the other strategies, timing is everything. An envelopment is also vulnerable to a re-envelopment, so the enemy's position must be accurately accounted for.
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6. The Fail Strategy

Not a strategy, but the result of poor coordination, the Fail Strategy is the method used by inferior guilds who have already admitted defeat before the battle is decided. Examples include: desolation of hope in guild chat/voice chat, arguing bickering and side-chatter, groups or individuals attempting solo, "Rambo," assaults on the enemy without the assistance of the full-force of their guild, and desertion (aka Ragequitting). I've posted this as an example of what me must always, always, ALWAYS strive to avoid.

I had an idea that's similar to some of these...

I think we need a "Breaker" group composed of people who can take a hit with one healer. So warrs, prots and eva builds. Behind them is our mage group, 4 mages 2 healers. They pew pew kill. Behind the mage group are our capturers, cart runners, crystal collectors and diversion group. I think that's fairly self explanatory lol. The last group is great for lower levels and newer people who don't understand how it all works just yet.

Then basically we just zerg. With our low attendance I think it's probably our best bet. I also realize that just this was probably in all your post somewhere but you know.... ADD is a bitch.

Resei's post was mainly focusing on Envy's GvGs with Cata for the world bosses but we could definitely use all these strategies as well as the ones suggested by Amp and Blue (I noticed Blue updated his post with better pics) for IR

These are useful strategies. But we need to find a way to get more people going to IR. We're always outnumbered and even outclassed at times. The best thing I think would be to consolidate forces, essentially the stack till we can actually start making more efficient smaller squads. As was seen in almost all of our wars, no one sticks together. So until we can do the stack, we're better off avoiding the more advanced strategies.

These strategies also bring up some valid points. Other guilds utilize this. I noticed the use of bait and kill move being used quite frequently, and lots of our members fell one by one. When it comes to pvp we need to work together and stay together. We also need to move fast and not hold others back. We are often forced to make a choice: speed or grouping... A lot of times we rush, and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't... People seriously need to learn how to get into IR, get your combat mount license, mount up, buff up, and be ready to go before the door opens

As for Ampy's idea, it's great but it also works that we have to move as one. A mage group can't move on its own without the said breaker group. So if we do it this way we all have to be in agreement that the entire guild moves as one the entire time.

The problem is, half of the damn people we bring into IR don't even listen. The only people that listened in my group were Ark and Wiggle. I had troubles getting heavenz and eli to do what i was telling them too. That is one problem, they need to learn to kind of take our word for it because, we do have plans set in place before we just run in, but that is my thought on it.

I think we should really try to get the stack going because honestly, that's pretty much what project X did and that is why they beat us, if we had done the same thing, we would of beat them, they were not that strong.

Well...I only stayed behind to make sure that the mine got secure enough to delay them when they took it over again...and again...and again. But I get what you're saying Sendo. I should trust what you guys are saying more. Sorry.

Oh its fine Eli, I just get a little erked when people don't listen to what I'm saying, makes me seem like a bad leader, and then ruki saw you guys running around me and she told me twice to stay at mine 2 lol

we dont know who we're vsing yet next week do we?

We won't know until thursday.

I think our guild needs some bonding time to build trust and all that good stuff o.o
One of the things the original members did, was watch movies together online (someone would stream movies from their computer and we'd all watch it). They didn't play FW for very long but I did feel a connection when we were chatting during the movies.

I love it Wiggle! I'm a technological.... moron... but I'm totally up for it if someone else does the hard part

We have maintenance tomorrow... (I'm sleepy) I don't know about a movie, but we could all do something. One problem with this though, all the people who WOULD do this, have pretty much bonded. Need to figure out something that anyone/everyone could/would/want to do, then get them to do it.

Flash games, some kind of interactive chatroom, etc.

Forum games are a good example, but look at how it's kind of dominated by the wiggle ampy sendo thing... with the occasional blue ghost combo breaker

Rukie suggested a karaoke night thing if people are interested

Do u really wanna hear my singing Blue?!

I want to hear drunken Eli sing.... ijs

Omai ...maybe, we'll se XD

I wouldn't sing but I sure as hell would listen.

https://vendetta-fw.forumotion.com/t175-anti-strategy#2673

We will be facing lots of the strategies in the future. Look here to see some ways to counter them. The counters are very basic, as I just spit out stuff off the top of my head. But if people actually read and like them (and comment/critique) I may expand on them. Otherwise here ya go

We should announce the strat we are going to use, before we use so people can read up on it.

But thanks for that blue, I will check it out

We could play Risk and gang up on Blue, see if he'll still wins >.>

Or me and blue can team up on all of you

I don't wanna get double teamed QQ

I NEED AN ADULT D8<
http://board-games.uk.pogo.com/games/risk?pageSection=hp_pop_1risk

I want to get double teamed j/k j/k... or am I!? lol

ampy likes multiple people on her. K guys line up

Why are we lining up? This is a team effort, we all go in together >8D

Lining up makes the organization easier at the start, she can only take so many